“A Nuanced Approach to Autonomy, Culture and Paternalism”
The Cancer Network has an excellent and thoughtful article on the subject of communication between oncologists and their patients. I am glad to see the article is available free of charge to anyone who clicks on this link. Good, this way we can hope a lot of ordinary patients get to read it too, not just medical professionals.
The article deals with problems of patient’s rights and autonomy, various levels of paternalism on part of the doctor (not always to be disdained), cultural differences in how human beings handle life-or-death situations. I strongly recommend you read the full article for yourself, it just takes a click of your mouse and a little of your time. Whether you are a patient or a caregiver, this is an article that I hope provokes a good discussion among our members. For a change, you don’t have to read through my long-winded explanations, the article is easy to understand and speaks for itself rather well.
Here is an example from the article, just so you know the kind of issues it discusses.
Mrs. Kimat Met (pseudonym), a 37-year-old ultra-orthodox Jewish mother of two small children, presents with metastatic pancreatic cancer with extensive liver metastases. She is weak and cachectic. Given the very advanced disease and her poor performance status at presentation, the outlook is poor and the likelihood of substantial benefit from chemotherapy is small. The family, who were told of her diagnosis by the diagnosing surgeon, request that you not tell her how serious her condition is. They explain that in their culture any information should be given to her husband, and that he and his rabbi will decide what is best for her to know.
At times when her family has not been present, the patient has repeatedly remarked to the junior resident that she wants to be told what is happening to her.
You, the attending of record, sit by her bedside and take her hand. She turns on her pillow, looks you in the eye, squeezes your hand, and says, “I want to live! I need to see my children grow up! I need you to give me hope! I am the sick one here but I feel like no one is talking to ME.”
Questions abound:
• Are you going to tell her what is going on despite the explicit request of her family?
• How much will you tell her about the grim prognosis or the low likelihood of benefit and the potential for harm from treatment?
• Does her plea for hope demand that you hold back on disclosing the full scope of the impending tragedy?
• Without all of the information, how can she possibly make an informed decision about whether to receive what will probably be ineffectual and possibly harmful chemotherapy?
The article goes on to discuss various options that the oncologist can try. Interesting reading, as I said above.
Editorial
My blood boils every time I hear of an arrogant physician who will not take the time to listen, who treats the disease or the lab numbers, not the human being in front of him. Heavy handed paternalism does not work for me, however well intended it may be. As I mentioned in a previous article, we do not sign away our unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness just because we happen to be cancer patients. Medical jargon may not be our forte, but that does not make us stupid or incapable of understanding issues that define our very existence. Damn it, as the consumers that pay for every single dollar spent on healthcare, the least we deserve is a bit of respect! Whatever happened to “the customer is always right”?
But it takes two to tango, and in all fairness we cannot place the entire blame for botched communication on the shoulders of oncologists. There is another side to this problem of complicated communications.
The example from the article I cited may sound a bit extreme to you. Believe me, it is not. I am not an oncologist. My role is far more limited – I am merely a patient advocate. Yet, I too have seen my share of similar problems.
- What do I tell a newly diagnosed patient who writes to me, clearly looking for my validation of the latest nonsense herbal cure – and tells me in so many words that she cannot bear it if I tell her it is so much snake oil?
- Or how about the 75 year old desperately seeking optimistic survival odds for stem cell transplants for people his age? And takes me to task for writing about poor survival statistics for people who have totally flunked FCR – as he has?
- How do I convince a patient deathly scared of dying of chemotherapy toxicity that she would die a lot sooner if she refuses necessary and sensible therapy – notwithstanding the adverse effect profile of chemotherapy?
- What do I do with all the lost souls who ask me to pray for them, rub the belly of the Buddha, cross my fingers, anything, just so long as I tell them pretty little lies?
- And where in my heart do I carefully wrap and tuck away the pain and hurt of patients who dropped me like a hot potato after my husband P.C. died – possibly because I have become a bad luck talisman in their eyes?
- What should I do with patients who insist on asking me to make all the tough medical decisions for them because they cannot handle them and there is no one else? In a sane world that is a level of responsibility that no patient advocate deserves. Family, close friends, spiritual guides – these are the people that should be the ones handling such tough calls. But it seems that sometimes our over-crowded world is also a very lonely place – especially for people who are sick or facing a patch of bad luck. And we all depend on the kindness of strangers.
- Last but not least, what do doctors (and patient advocates) do with patients who ask them to perform miracles – when they too are mere mortals?
Mind you, I am not complaining. Very far from it. I am overwhelmed by the honor you do me – with your trust and affection. Like many wonderfully hard working and sincere healthcare workers, I wish I was more worthy of it.
The very least I can do is fess up. Here is the skinny my friends. We are all human beings, all of us with huge, ugly clay feet making a mess where ever we go. That is built into the DNA of being human. Don’t expect miracles of us. And don’t expect miracles of yourself, you too are human. I see those ever so dainty clay feet poking out from under your pants. If you need one character trait to deal with being a cancer patient, it is being able to make-do with less than perfect situations, families, therapies, doctors and yes, patient advocates and patients too.
They say talk is cheap. I beg to differ – if by “talk” we mean an active effort at communication. It takes two people to have a meaningful dialogue. It takes a lot more than that to build a vibrant community that works well together. We have thousands of registered members. Yet, only a few ever bother to log in and read member comments, or post comments themselves. How can we hear you, if you neither talk nor listen to us talking? It won’t be perfect symphony of empathetic communication – nothing ever is. Remember what I just told you? Don’t expect perfection! Good enough for government work is good enough to get started. We will work on perfection tomorrow. You OK with that?
And while we are waiting for that perfect tomorrow, get out there and try to communicate. Today. Imperfectly. Humanly.





50 comments on "Controversies in Communication"
Even before I read this article I just wanted to say to you that I think you are doing the best job anyone could ever do being the patient advocate.. I can only imagine how really tough this is for you. You more than likely have to take a lot of slinging in the face so to speak..
I am 8 yrs 8 months with CLL since diagnosis.My husband was diagnosed 3 years ago as well. Thankfully we are both still watch and wait.. I know there will come a time perhaps when we will have to look at treatment. We both are at the NIH in a clinical trial for stage. So far we are hanging in there. But my brother in law on the other hand has really dealt with alot of issues. Currently in the hospital with a lung infection. He also has heart problems. He was a vietnam veteran and was exposed heavily to agent orange.
So for now we count our blessings.
Keep up the good work Chaya..
Anita
Funny this article would come right after I moved to a new area and just met a new oncologist/hematologist. He didn’t say anything wrong and was encouraging to me but…. Now I know, he and I both have clay feet and our conversation went well in light of that. I am still in watch and wait and also, thanks to you, in the Natural History study at NIH. I am very thankful for ALL the information you provide!
Communication about cancer is so important, I don’t think doctors realise how much us patients chew over every one of their words after we’ve spoken to them. It can there after completely colour our perceptions and responses.
In my case, I was told by my local doctor that I was not to worry about all these extra blood tests he kept giving me, that it wasn’t anything serious like leukemia. When I was finally referred to a hospital to see a consultant, he said: Now, about this illness (CLL) you have, go home and look it up on the internet! I will never forgive him because by the end of that horrible weekend surfing on the net, I knew I was going to die and at a young age it totally floored me trying to take in that kind of raw knowledge on my own.
How about if the doctors just ask us patients how much we want to hear? Personally, I want the lot without bells on, although I know some would rather not know.
knowledge abundant knowledge helps the patient navigate the waters of the disease process. thank you for all that you do.
just one tiny point… in the orthodox persuasion of the Jewish faith it is considered a sin to lie to the dying. The way I heard it, lies meant leaving out the whole truth as well as editing it to make it sweeter..regardless of the justification. that patient’s family may have the ‘cultural’ preference, however, nowhere is it written that a physician must only communicate with the male of the species, husband or father or whatever. Interestingly, in my family however, tho not orthodox, but conservative, it was perfectly ok to lie to other family members about one’s condition. And apparently even leave out key information when one was discussing their health and habits with their doctors; a tradition which I have broken.
conversations with medical personnel are a crucial, but often neglected piece of our care, so thanks for the article.
beth fillman
Right on, Chaya, tell it like it is, no detour. Thank you for the article.
Monique
Chaya,
You revealed a downside of being a patient advocate that I would never have guessed. All I can say is that I appreciate you the more for the work you do.
Ed
That’s a pretty daunting list of “what do i say to” situations, Chaya. Let me suggest a little triage.
1. Lies – people who demand you validate their theory, or who insist on a specific answer:
“I will help you as I can, but I cannot and will not lie to you. If you absolutely must have a specific answer, you will have to get it from someone else.”
2. People who want you to pray for them: see ‘Lies’.
3. Convincing people of the true situation:
You cannot convince those who do not wish to change their minds.
“I don’t believe you are correct. If you are willing to listen, I will try to explain why. Otherwise, I cannot help you.”
(Otherwise, we are back to Lies.)
4. Asking for reassurance:
Do what you can, avoiding Lies. See ‘Feet of Clay’
5. Asking for help in making decisions:
Try for suggestions rather than decisions. See ‘Feet of Clay’
Cases 1 and 2 are non-starters. You cannot give them what they want and retain your own integrity.
Case 3 is probably a loser also, but worth a try.
Cases 4 and 5 deserve whatever help one can give, again avoiding Lies.
The ‘Feet of Clay’ speech should be on the wall of every medical facility.
Chaya,
I listen. True I may not say much. But I do listen.
So keep it coming. It’s all valuable info to us… so thank you
steve
Nuanced Approach,{… it depends on what the meaning of is “is”…} I am put into a room, one of four,I hear the Hem/Onc quickly make his way down two rooms spending 10-15 minutes with each patient. Then when my turn is over as I am buttoning up my shirt, I hear him speaking in his deep voice to the patient in the next room. He is kind but I have no doubt that all four of his patients are in differant stages of care and no doubt have differant physchological needs. I have now seen him 9 times in 22 months. Like his patients, his demeaner changes; some days he Marcus Welby, other days he is Doc from Gun Smoke.
I think that most of the reponsibility must fall to the patient, if your communication needs are not being met, let it be known. Nuance has it place; I prefer staight up yes or no. I hate Maybe…and CLL seems like a Maybe disease…
Thanks for all you do…
js.
I second steve’s response.
Thanks for all you do, Chaya.
sally (justme)
On my recent oncology visit we discussed the recent studies on CLL. He had just come back from that big medical meeting. He is a wonderful doctor. I am still watch and wait, and I talked about the toxicity profile of some of the current drugs being studied.
Then he said this to me. I had a daughter screaming at me to treat her father and he was watch and wait status. I said “No survival advantage” He said, “only the oncologists realize that sometimes.” I brought up that study last year where big CLL centers have better statistics. (Pointing out to him that he was well studied) Well, read between the lines of that study the difference was waiting to treat.
I should have said but didn’t think of it. “Let them call me and I’ll explain it to them.” I have been doing this with Breast Cancer for years, deciphering studies etc. and at least pointing out what questions to ask.
Marilyn
Words don’t always convey our full gratitude ….Chaya.
For all your help in guiding us to articles etc that give us a slim chance
Of understanding this silent cancer (the good cancer).
I for one treasure all your emails !
They show people care Thank You!
I was told of my CLL count August 2010 at age 72!
Told not to be concerned with 12 WBC ,
But then the watch and wait was turned upside down for me,
as my count double and then again ! It now is 88!
Although I have heart dease and suffer Angina attacks ……
I still flit about faster than my children in the house;)
So regard myself as fit with regards to treatment for CLL.
As does my oncologist, however he has reprieved me twice on the treatment front!
Sensingi
Sensing my hesitancy and knowing I was not jepardising my chances of it working!
Because of yours and his assistance in understanding my fears and options
I hope 14th feb 2012 (my treatment discussions day) I have the guts to smile and bear it!
Sorry for hitting send by accident ..
Keep up your good work Chaya
Kindest regards
To all xxxx
Barbara
Hi Chaya,
I don’t comment much but read, and very much appreciate, every article and the site as a whole!
Regarding communication, I think TRUTH is the keystone and one reason Terry Hamblyn has been so well regarded by the CLL community – I can’t imagine he ever lied or misrepresented the truth to anyone, but also would never be thought of as unsympathetic. Tell the truth as fully and sympathetically as you can and if someone has trouble dealing with it it is their problem rather than your’s and they should approach a psychologist or spiritual adviser for more help.
Regards,
Rick.
PS I’ll try and comment more – I wouldn’t want you to think for a moment you are ‘whistling in the dark’ :-) !
Dear Chaya,
Love and gratitude to you for being the first real voice of reason I heard on the Internet when I was diagnosed. I read everything you write. I feel like you are a friend to my heart, as well as a patient advocate. i am waiting to find out if I am accepted in the PCI-32765 clinical trial in Bethesda.
La Verne
Dear Chaya,
Talk about good karma… just as I posted the message to you, I got a call from NIH and they want me to fly out to Bethesda. :-)
La Verne
Communication is oh so important! Poor communication, dishonesty and a condescending and/or patronising, overbearing attitude from a medical practitioner can totally ruin any chance of a successful partnership, something which is essential for a reasonable “journey” along this path. A poor communicator, or someone who subjects people to the previously mentioned treatment, makes trust or openness impossible; both theses are essential especially in this kind of relationship. If you are unlucky enough to come up against that type of “practitioner”, fear becomes your constant companion when you see any medical practitioner thereafter.
Thank you for all your humorous and straight talk, and your skilful “interpretations”/translations of jargon. It makes understanding easier. You are a gem! Keep well.
Mette
Namaste to all!
As a new logger-in and a 10 year W/W now headed tomorrow for a surgical consult to set a date next week for an axillary node biopsy or excision, I am grateful for this
timely article.
It will be helpful for me in talking with family and friends regarding what I understand from the volume of information read on this site.
Because none of my family has been to my bimonthly Oncology appts., and
because we have all had dealings with the oncologists of other family members whose discussions with Drs. were fraught with misunderstandings, I hope to be able to help both myself AND family members see both sides of the situation while trying
to be as responsible as possible for the decision-making that must be made.
I must confess my own lack of consideration for the Drs. who dealt with other family
member’s situations. I do feel my Dr. and his most capable PA are both of a giving and concerned spirit–the real test of who I am in this and who each of them is has
yet to be tested—but woe is me, it is upon us in the next few weeks. This information will help me anon!
Thank you Chaya, for sharing this article with us.
And, again–Namaste
Chaya – as you point out, communication is a two way street. Your website helps us, the patient end of the equation, be educated so that we have the right questions to ask. We have to be brave enough and honest enough with our doctors to ask them. And, if we encounter a doctor who does not want to hear questions or is condescending when answering, we have an obligation to ourselves to vote with our feet – walk out and find someone else who will do better.
Thank you for giving us honest anwers and kindness at the same time. You give us the tools to help direct our own treatments. And that is no small achievement! Knowledge is power – thanks for bringing power to the people!
Nancy and Roger
Chaya,
You are appreciated more than you can imagine by all of us who have been reading your articles for several years. This is the place for the real facts and solid information.
I’m fortunate to have a hematologist at Mayo Clinic who is a great communicator. My wife and I have been given a realistic approach to CLL and the progression of the disease.
Jim
Chaya- I read most, if not all of your articles. But post very few remarks, communication is not my strong suit! But when it comes to my visits with my oncologist it’s a different story. I realize that he can not read my mind so if there is something I need to know, I have to ask him. He always ends my time with him with the questions “Do you have any questions for me?”
My Mom was also not told that she was terminally ill. We were instructed by my father not to discuss it. I remember her looking at me in the hospital and asking if I thought she would recover. I said ‘I hope so Ma’. I think she must have known after my not being able to reassure her.
I am reminded of an interview I heard with Dr Rachel Naomi Remen called ‘Listening Generously’. Her practice eventually became one of
‘counseling’ the ill as well as their doctors. It’s here for anyone who is interested…
http://being.publicradio.org/programs/listeninggenerously/
Thank you Chaya, for putting this dilemma out there. You’re the best — even if you are modest about the accolades, you more than deserve them as the foremost advocate in our lives (certainly in mine). I don’t know what I would have done without CLL Topics!
My hema/onc is very good at treating a “disease,” but not a person. At my last checkup (I’m W&W), when I asked some questions, he practically glared at me, raised his voice and said he wished he had been a doctor “in the 40s and 50s, “when people had reverence” for their doctors.” It took everything I had to refrain from saying, “Oh, you mean when people thought you were G-d?” but instead, kept my cool and calmly said, “That’s very paternalistic and I’m not a child.”
At my prior visit, he told me I had to have “trust in my doctor,” when I asked for a copy of my blood work, to which I responded I did trust him but also liked to do my own research. He said he was a doctor taught to deal with a disease, not a psychiatrist — he was “not trained” in that. He then sent my blood report to my internist along with the comment that I should seek therapy. I guess I should be seeking a new doc!
When I mentioned I’d like to start a support group in my area and gave him permission to share my name with other patients since he couldn’t give me theirs, he huffed, “Absolutely not! You’d scare them to death.”
I live in Morris County, NJ, so if anyone is interested in getting together to share their insights, please email me at onlyme18@verizon.net
When one’s immune system is compromised, other conditions may appear and given CLL, we get more concerned than we otherwise would. For example I have very mild Dupuytren’s Contracture in my hands, which appeared about the same time as the CLL — at first I wondered if it could be connected to CLL but had no one to ask. It was diagnosed by my dermatologist at my biannual bodycheck. When I looked it up and discovered it was also autoimmune and incurable, it occurred to me that it made sense for conditions that are in our genetic code to be more likely to manifest themselves when our immune systems are comprised, whereas they might otherwise never rear their ugly little heads.
I am reading a book given to me by another doctor, called the “The Autoimmune Epidemic” by Donna Jackson Nakazawa and Dr. Douglas Kerr, which is an informative and fascinating read.
Hoping there are some of you in my neck of the woods who’d be interested in talking about these topics to reassure yourself that every little blip in or around your body isn’t lethal.
Wishing you all the best!
Chaya,
Thank you so much for being here. You are a clear voice in a very muddled part of my life. I am a 69 yr old woman diag
2009. My WBC doubled every 3 mo untill my last visit when they decreases by a few. I am terrified of the chemo. Oh how I wish I had a magic food to take or eliminate however I’m much to much reality oriented to put any fath in magic. It would be wonderful if you were my neighbor and could pop in & have a cup of tea.(I do have some lovely teas that make me smile). At least a week before each onc visit my internal tension starts to tighten. The time befor the last my numbers were so high he had me come back in two months. That last mo was impossible, I told him I’m not comming in that soon again and he said we’ll see what the numbers say. With no increases I was given a 4 mo reprieve. He may or may not understand that I ment what I said, I’m not going to go have blood test every 2 mo again. Not while I’m feeling good enough to enjoy life. He take the time to explain and answer my questions deals somewhat with my fears (admits them & does not belittle me for them) last time her told me he did not know the answer to a question, explained the profession didn’t have an answer, they had clues some had opinions but the facts of the matter were not yet known. He gained a lot of trust with that answer. I trash a lot of email every day but when yours shows up …I read. You are my trusted friend.
Namaste
“And where in my heart do I carefully wrap and tuck away the pain and hurt of patients who dropped me like a hot potato after my husband P.C. died – possibly because I have become a bad luck talisman in their eyes?”
This statement kind of threw me for a loop, my biggest fear after you lost your husband was you dropping out and moving on. I don’t post much either, but I appreciate more than you’ll ever know your contribution to all of us.
Dear Chaya,
I triple Steve’s comment……you are appreciated and do this job so well. I have recommended this site many times. Keep up the good work. Monag764
Chaya, I echo Boomer. My heart broke when I read your words. I am so sorry people treated you so badly. After having to live the nightmare, no one would have blamed you if you had chosen to walk away from it all. I am grateful you stayed. This is one of the first places I found shortly after my diagnois four years ago. The information you share and explain so well has helped me stay abreast with the latest and helps me to effectively communicate with my doctor. We are lucky to have you in our corner and I thank you!
Chaya,
I echo “Boomer’s” comment as I think it reflects a great deal of the emotional burden and caring responsibility that you have shouldered on behalf of not just P.C.’s journey but for all of us.
I could feel your concern for me personally and poignantly at the end of the last CLL Conference in Canada in 2009. I know I looked pretty bad and was holding off treatment so I could attend that Conference. I think it is our turn to be concerned for you. What ever turn or choice of path you take in your own life you should be comforted and secure in knowing you have left a body of relevant and quality filled information that is enough to sustain anyone motivated to chart or monitor their CLL journey with the greatest degree of confidence given the current state of knowledge in a complex and incurable disease.
I cannot imagine any other disease I could have the misfortune of contracting that would have as talented and dedicated guide as you have been. As I said once before “You are the Catcher in the Rye for us” and I love you for being who you are. There are always people who are too afraid, too self-centered, to dependent or just plain stupid to be capable of enriching their journey when faced with an incurable disease as squirrelly as CLL can be. Just remember – their failings are not your failures!
WWW
Dear Chaya,
Thank you again for another informative article. The CLL community is most fortunate to have an outstanding “patient advocate” such as you!! Your knowledge, ability to translate medical jargon into lay terms, and heartfelt caring and sharing are a priceless blessing to us all.
I was dismayed about some of the communication problems you mention in the article (that you experienced while trying to help others). Please know Chaya that there are legions of us that so appreciate all you do for us and that hold you in the highest affection, regard and esteem.
This patient/doctor communication article resonated with me. Oct. 2009 (just after retiring) I was Dx with early stage w/w CLL. It was quite a shock since I had always been blessed with good health. Thank goodness, I have an excellent PCP – but it took us awhile (and several doctors) to find a local general hem/onc that was not only a good doctor but open to working with a questioning, informed patient. My search ended last year whn UCLA opened a satallite office in my area and I found an excellent general hem/onc willing to work with me, my PCP and my CLL specialists at UCSD.
Thanks to finding you Chaya (CLL Topics & Updates) right after my Dx I learned the importance of having a CLL specialist on my team. As I live in So. Calif. I went to UCSD. My experience with the doctors at UCSD has been terrific. I saw Dr. Danielle James till she left last fall to work for Pharmacyclics (on PCI-32765). I now see Dr. Thomas Kipps who is a wonderful doctor in every way possible.
I am analytical by nature and profession (I’m a financial analyst)so I absolutely required doctors willing to work with me. I tackle my CLL like a giant financial analysis project. I do lots of homework (much of my data comes from your articles Chaya), learn how the latest findings might affect my situation and then prepare a list of questions for my hem/oncs. Some doctors did not want to have that kind of doctor-patient relationship but I kept searching till I found the doctors willing to work with me.
My advice would is to keep looking till you find doctors that are the best “fit” for what you are looking for. As Chaya points out no one is perfect – we all have clay feet. But I know from personal experience that if we are willing to take the time and effort we can find the right team of doctors for our situation.
I also believe that having an excellent PCP is a critical aspect of my CLL medical care – a good PCP is an invaluable part of my overall health care.
Thank you Chaya for another excellent article. And thank you to all the other folks who post your comments here – I learn so much from all of you.
Warm regards – Patti
Dear Chaya,
Thank you so very much for just “being there”. Although you never knew and we have never met personally, I cried with you when PC died. Thank you for continuing to be my patient advocate. You continue to dig out the latest information for all of us and present it in an easy to understand format.
I have learned so much by reading the articles posted here on CLL topics. Thanks to you and the information gleaned from these pages, I chose to not start chemo when a local oncologist thought it was time. Instead, I sought a second opinion from a well known researcher at the Mayo Clinic and discovered he agreed with me…so I remain in the wait/worry stage a while longer. My local oncologist is by no means a strip mall doc; he just treats so many patients with so many different sorts of cancers that he is a little out-of-date concerning the latest agreed upon guidelines for CLL. He does do a lot of good in our little community, but I cannot rely upon him totally. This community does not have an endless number of choices.
I have other serious health issues in addition to CLL and I have learned from you to be proactive there also. I might not be any healthier, but I certainly feel better emotionally knowing that I am trying to do my part by learning everything I can first and then choosing what I feel is best for me. My life, my money, my choice…and my possible mistakes! ;) I try to keep that in mind and it makes me feel stronger.
Keep up the good work,
Betty
Dear Chaya
Thank you for continuing to be our patient advocate despite the tragic loss of P.C. I am sorry that you feel so hurt because “patients droppped you like a hot potato” after his death.
Do you think it’s possibly not because they now condidered you a bad luck talisman,but because they felt that it would seem insensitive for them to talk about their problems after all that you and P.C. had been through? Unfortunately sometimes people are afraid of saying the wrong thing,not realising how hurtful their silence will be.
Take care.
Pam Peterson
pam1947 – you may be right. There are many causes for silence and we have no way of knowing.
Thanks to all of you, from the bottom of my heart, for all the kind words posted about me in this thread.
But really, the point of this review is you – to encourage each of you to think a bit more about your own communication needs, what you want from your doctors, how you go about getting it, and what you are willing to do to make it happen. I am sort of trying to be the marriage counselor here, trying to identify the pinch points in the communication process. The best compliment you can pay me is to tell me I made it easier for you to talk to your doctors.
I outlined some of the no-win situations I face as a patient advocate. The point of that exercise is to nudge you, ever so gently, to think about the possibility that you may be placing your doctors in similar situations. Do you expect them to be miracle workers? Do you want them to make all your decisions for you, be your savior, your best friend, bleed for your pain and hurt? Do you think oncologists can continue to work, go talk to the next cancer patient they have to take care of, if they bleed and hurt for each patient they see? Did you know suicide rate among oncologists is among the highest for any profession? When we ask too much, sometimes we run the risk of not getting even a little. Just something for you to think about.
Yes, we are going through a tough phase as a society coming to grips with access to medical care. Whatever your political persuasion, died-in-the-wool conservative or bleeding heart liberal (to use cliche descriptions of hard won philosophical convictions), we are all too aware of problems, needs unmet and a sense of confusion about directions.
No one elected me god. You neither. Maybe some of my readers actually have the clout to change the big picture. I know I do not. What do we do while waiting for someone to bring about that perfect tomorrow we all want? We can bitch about it. We can isolate ourselves through our silence. We can ask the age old plaintive question “why me?” – to which the Universe gives a thundering answer of – silence.
Or we can learn new tricks. We can come up the learning curve about our own patch of the healthcare crisis. We can become smarter consumers. We can increase our strength by working together. Things that go bump in the night are a lot less scary when you switch on the light. That is what we try to do here. Switch on the light. Too bad if you are bothered by the sight of accumulated dust bunnies under the bed; I hope this article tempts you to boldly go where no vacuum cleaner has gone before.
And here is a bit of wisdom from my favorite wise-man.
When asked what surprised him most, the Dalai Lama answered “Man. Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”
There is not much point in wishing for longer survival and better therapies, if you don’t enjoy the time you do have, is there?
Chaya, I am one of the thousands of lurkers here who (guiltily) never posts a comment. This article has motivated me to stop and say thank you! You have armed us with so much knowledge, and appropriate questions over the past several years. You have provided us with lucid explanations which have frequently been the best way for me to grasp what’s happening when my husband’s CLL has taken its dives and surges. While our wonderful, kind and very skilled local oncologist does all he can to explain changes and treatments, he cannot make us understand them. Your great body of work here provides the place I go to read, think, read and think more til I finally have a grasp on the moments reality. Thanks to you, I already understood that IVIG would be my husband’s best chance and pursued it with his oncologist’s staff with confidence we were looking at the right treatment. That saved his life, no small thing. Thanks to you, my husband is a regular at his dermatologist’s office, which recently saved his leg from amputation nearly caused by a nasty skin cancer that was growing ‘more aggressively than any’ the wound doc had ever seen. I knew this was a possibility and advocated for my husband armed with knowledge gained here. There were some trying moments. No small thing, that either. During the hardest of times, when it has appeared all was as bad as it could be, your site has provided real, hard information, which when read over a few times, actually guides my view and helps me help my husband, when he’s the most vulnerable and afraid to ask, I can offer him a steady informed perspective and we ask together. Without your voice, here, we would have both been simply reacting with fear, rather than calmly building understandings, as well as one can with such a complex, everchanging, difficult disease.
Thank you for this article too. I will print it and read and reread it until I’ve gleaned a bit more of the skills we all do better having. We cannot expect to force the improvement of another’s skills. Understanding others’ challenges helps us move in this often confusing world of conflicting opinions and courses of action.
Thank you for doing all of this, and doing it so well. And thank you for continuing even after your own tragic loss.
I just wanna hug you! I bet I speak for many of my fellow lurkers:)
Cindy Binkele, wife of Bob who is now 74 in pretty good health, all things considered, and was diagnosed in 1997.
Dear Chaya,
I understand the point of the article is to help us to reflect, but I can’t help but want to tell you that you are a magnificent, courageous and wise woman!!!!
Thank you for sharing your own truth and vulnerability with us – that is true strength and conviction!
“We have thousands of registered members. Yet, only a few ever bother to log in and read member comments, or post comments themselves.”
This is my first post. The above comment inspired me to finally post.
I was diagnosed 2 1/2 years ago and have found your site to be invaluable. It is the first place to look when I have a question. I haven’t posted as I have not approached treatment, am just learning, and have nothing to add.
Your charts are invaluable in following the progression of my CLL. My ALC is still below 35K. My LDT is averaging about 2 years.
I’m 61 and am blessed that my two children are 10 years out of college and married, with grandchildren from both and one on the way, completing two from each, as planned.
Simply speaking, you (and your site) are a treasure.
Dear Chaya,
I have never posted before, so this is a new thing for me. How can I tell you what you have done for me? It has been 2 1/2 years since my diagnosis, I have the unmutated IvGH and positive for Zap 70 . It was through your articles that I learned what that actually meant. Although my oncologist is excellent, he does treat by the numbers, and when he told me I was unmutated IvGH without explanation, I actually thought that must be a good thing. Hah- I thank you for your honesty, and can only empathazie with what you suffered losing your husband (and some so called friends). My tears have actually been for my husband- always we thought I would outlive him. Thank you for helping me understand and make sense out of the disease and the research to combat it. You are a gift.
Judy K.
I post only occasionally but look forward to your e-mails and read every one of your articles. I, too, grieved with you and then feared you may leave us when your husband passed away. We are all so thankful for what you do for us. THANKS.
dottie
Chaya,
I lurk on many boards and rarely post. This is my first post on your site. I appreciate and am thankful for all you do to help the CLL community by keeping us informed. If it’s an e-mail from Chaya it’s a must read. Thank you for responding individually to so many. You sure helped me out when things were looking bleak after I relapsed with a Richter’s transformation 1.5 yrs after my stem cell transplant. Keep up the excellent work!
Cindy
Dear Chaya, I’ve been with you in spirit from your very first posts. I mourned the loss of P.C. and have been in awe of your strength to continue the fight for all of us. Like many others I have not previously posted and for that I am truly sorry. Over the years I have listened and learned from you, as have so many others. I say “Ditto X3!” to all of the comments that you have received since posting your “Communications” post.
Many thanks,
Beth from Tennessee
very timely article for me. I’m about to see my once a year specialist with some tough decisions to make. i’m facing my third round of chemo, those plus one clinical trial.
Thanks for another important review.
Hal
Chaya,
When I was diagnosed 8 years ago you were my first connection to why,where and how to get my mutation status as I entertained going into the vaccine trial. You walked me through; you followed through. This was the beginning of my learning from your words of wisdom and deep honesty. As a senior I became most informed enough for my local respected onc/hem and internist to say “ I was the most informed CLL patient” in our city(100,000). This happened because of you. I believe especially as seniors it is important for us to take your lead and show you are gratitude by not only following e.g. your suggested” Best Practices” but also not to be shy communicating with others on this site. This will benefit all and fill your heart with great pride. PC is so proud of you. So am I.
Gratitude,
Jean
Thanks for posting this exceptionally good article. It was a wise doctor who wrote it.
How lucky we are to have you to find these articles and (usually) translate them into language we can understand.
The picture was priceles!
Cathie
The Dalai Lama quote is just wonderful.
Besides the other thoughtful things you say here, I am pleased to be reminded by the comments on how hard it is to be an Oncologist. Mine is one of the select few where MD does not stand for Medical Deity…and he fully appreciates having me consider myself part of the team, asking about information I have found at this site and others, suggesting extra blood tests, etc.
Several times I have thanked him for being willing to do such a difficult job, where so many of his clients are facing limited life spans and therefore many feel stressed. I must tell you that the returned thanks I have received for this is heartfelt. I have also thanked the triage nurse and other staff members. Strangely, I find most of the office staff is upbeat and likes working there. Most of the other patients I speak with there are also reasonably positive characters, facing their challenges with grace. I think a staff that listens and communicates well helps their clients on many levels.
Speaking of the 10 or so minutes we all have for more routine visits, I try to make the most of the time just as I would for any important meeting…by having a written agenda. My Oncologist has given me his email, though he likely does not do so for many patients. I use this as an opportunity to publish my suggested agenda before the visit. I write down all my current symptoms which I thing he will be interested in…energy level, possible drug reactions…edema, etc…my own measurement of size of the nodes I can palpate and so on. He has learned where he can trust me and occasionally will skip his own measurement and address my other questions… say on the latest paper sited here on CAL-101. Sometimes he will come in with a full set of papers on the subjects I warned him about.
I also come in with a bound lab notebook where I take notes on our conversations…often finishing after the visit so I can listen fully without the distraction of writing. When possible, I have my wife at the visit so that she can help keep me on topic to cover my current main issues and help me afterwards to record what was actually said. I think that I picked up this habit from a suggestion on this site some years ago.
By the way, I am an Orthodox Jew and I fully agree with Beth’s comments above about being truthful with the sick. There are places you can shade things a bit…for example you can always say that an bride is beautiful…her inner soul is always beautiful and you can chose to see this. There is no need to scare someone who really does not want to know the statistics of their outlook. But if they ask, you must be square with them. You can still honestly say that statistics are only that and there are often times that people do far better than a doctor’s expectations.
It is fair for someone themselves to pray for a miracle. But I fully agree with Chaya that to ask someone to pray for you when this is not that persons habit or within their belief system is really, really pushing it. Similarly, if a sick person clearly is not wanting to be part of a spiritual belief system, for someone to push this sick person to pray for healing is both outrageous and quite possibly dangerous to that person’s health…as he is forced to cut off your friendship. It is great for people like me to choose to be part of a spiritual system, but this is a private matter we need to know when to stay out of other people’s business.
Dear Chaya, I wish my husband had been willing to visit this site but I still read your posts 3 years after losing him to CLL. I was inspired by your candor and willingness to put the effort in to explaining research and treatment, I love being able to get a glimpse of your personality. Truly, you are a guidepost for me. I am a nurse and felt a personal failure in the rapid downward course of his disease,this site helped me cope with that, ask questions and be more of an advocate. You have helped me to understand issues for my children and inspired me and prepared me for the possibilities. Thank You
Dear Chaya,
Though i rarely post a comment I avidly read everything you write. I see you as a skillful, caring guide who shines a light and helps us to read a complicated map as we grope our way through some difficult terrain. My husband who has always shied away from medical sites also reads almost everything you write.
You have made me now more aware of the challenges my hematologist faces.
You certainly have rippled far and wide. You make a big difference in our “patienthood”, medically and psychologically.
Dear Chaya
Thank you so much for another excellent article.
The patient/doctor communication is very,very important.
I am agree with the words of Patti.We learn so much from all of you.
Thank you.
Agreed with Boomer, Waynewells and everyone on this thread. Thank you for the immeasurable compassion in your heart, and your focus and diligence. We would not be the same –none of us I am sure– without you.
You ask us to reflect on our our behavior and communication pattern. [Thank you tsvieps for reminding us to be organized and focused — a benefit to the doctor and to ourselves in taking our share of responsibility. I am lucky to have the same kind of relationship with my present doc- we exchange emails regularly, even between visits, when I want to share something I learn here, or elsewhere.]
I am reminded of the day I received my dx. My obgyn ran routine pre-op test and after many re-tests, he told me very kindly of the “good cancer” and sent me to a specialist down the hall.
The Hematologist saw me immediately as a favor to the obgyn colleague. He only had a few minutes for me. Enough to confirm the diagnosis, tell me I was outside the “norm”, or average (male, rural, 70’s, etc), that best was W&W, and to put a few folders in my husband’s hands. I was in a daze, but my husband was furious. He took my hand and took me out of the office.
At home I cried -a lot- and I reflected on that day’s visit. I still see every moment in my mind’s eye. I can see the waiting room with one sad bald man, one youngish mother wearing a wig alongside her pre-teen. The clerk was rather nervous, but kind. The long maze of his large clinic, as I walked past a machine that agitates flasks of blood, which I had never seen before, and into a small examining room. It was afternoon and the clinic seems eerily quiet. Then I remember the oncologist. He seemed tired, exhausted, and sad. To this day I feel that he must have been having a very bad day, and in my imagination I suppose he may have lost a patient or two that week. I feel a great deal of compassion toward that man -who did me no favor it seemed at the time- in seeing me on such short notice.
My husband never got over his frustration and anger with the doc, but I still think of him as having a bad day doing a special favor to a colleague.
Chaya, you ask that we become better informed –thanks to you we become more and more, and without your knowledge it would be infinitely harder for us. With your help we are all acquiring some new skills and looking under the bed and cleaning under the carpet.
I do hope each of us is motivated to have the strength and focus to acquire new communication, organization and social skills. Learn to ask for the right kind of help to the right kind of people at the right time (steep learning curve here! :-)
To acquire the wisdom outlined in HisHoliness the Dalai Lama’s quote, and to remember that we are not here forever, so make the most of it now, but be prepared to leave this world with dignity and care. By that I mean, every day, we need to be prepared– we are dealing with CLL, but we can all be hit by the proverbial bus. So let’s live like it matters.
Have a safe trip. All my best to you always.
Chaya, Thankyou for your web site and your compassion towards those with CLL. This site is a treasure of collected articles and comments from yourself and orthers. The article on CLL and MM doing a double wammy on survival rates was a good post; I don’t believe many in the field are really aware and of prevention and screening.
ps…enjoyed the Dalai Lama’s quote. We will all die, the goal is to leave something of value behind for others. (note value does not equate to money)
GerryH
I have just signed up as a member of CLL topics and this excellent article on communication seems a good way to start posting . I was diagnosed in 2004 and had nearly eight years of trouble free ‘ motoring ‘ until it all went pear shaped . I am grateful to my haematologist who spent considerable time explaining to me the pros and cons of FCR , and who also told me that it was not a cure but that she was hopeful of a long remission . Well, I am a bit down I have to admit , but nonetheless I glad I know the truth .
The information on CLL Topics has given me so much more insight , too . I had visited the site many times before plucking up the courage to join ( I am not familiar with computers and websites and such ! ) .
Although my haematologist gave me valuable information , most of what I have learned about CLL has come from this site . Thank you , Chaya .
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